FROM THE NEWS ARCHIVES OF CINEMA CONFIDENTIAL
INTERVIEW: Sir Ben Kingsley on "Oliver Twist"
POSTED
ON
09/27/05 AT 9:00 A.M.
BY ETHAN AAMES
Academy Award-winning actor Sir Ben Kingsley stars in Roman Polanksi's adaptation
of Charles Dickens' classic novel, "Oliver Twist," which co-stars
Harry Eden, Leanne Rowe, and Barney Clark as the adorable Oliver Twist. Set
in the 1830s in old England, the movie tells the inspiring tale of an orphan
named Oliver Twist and his adventures growing up. After running away from an
orphanage, Oliver finds himself mixed up with a strange man named Fagin and
his band of child thieves. Oliver, however, realizes the wrong of his ways and
tries to leave - but Fagin won't give him up so easily. Below, Kingsley talks about the classic tale Q: Are you aware of all the criticism of Dickens' portrayal of Fagin as
a Jewish character, and did you feel like you were walking a tightrope? A: I was not aware of this tightrope for one second. Q: Dickens was accused after the book came out of being anti-Semitic and
as a result, in "Our Mutual Friend," he wrote up some sympathetic Jewish
characters. Were you ever worried about that? A: No. It never entered the debate. Roman and I never spoke of it. Roman allowed
for a completely uncluttered avenue toward completing that character, completely
uncluttered. It never, never entered the workspace, and therefore never entered
my head. Q: What's your sense of the fact that he has been stereotyped though? A: Honestly, I don't have one. I don't have any sense of that at all, or any
strong opinions about that. I think Roman wanted me to play Fagin because he
was aware, as an actor, of my journey through Simon Wiesenthal's life, through
Isaac Stern's life and through Otto Frank's life as Anne Frank's father. Confronting
that enormous tribal grief as an actor, wearing my yellow star on three different
overcoats in three different films with three different numbers on them, it's
a very strange journey I've had as an actor to have those three experiences
in my life and then having also played Moses, and Myer Lansky, to also now be
invited to play Fagin. So it never, never entered the workspace or arena and
therefore Roman never allowed that debate into my head, and I promise you it
didn't. I promise you it never entered my head, any more than when I was offered
Hamlet, Prince of Denmark, did it enter my head that I wasn't blonde. Truly,
it never entered my head to think I should be blonde because I'm the prince
of Denmark. Q: Did the hair and teeth and everything help you to get into the character?
A: It's not a question of getting used to it, sir, because they were all my
choices. I chose to have those teeth because it reminds me of a man my brother
and I used to go and see in a part of Manchester called the Shambles, that was
an 18th-century part of Manchester, which already sounds Dickensian. And there
was a character who owned an antique shop that was a mountain of stuff that
he collected and bought and sold - musical instruments, stamps, coins, metals,
helmets, everything, piled up behind him. He had teeth like a horse that would
come out of his mouth at different angles. I was 8 at the time, and I looked
up at this person and saw this extraordinary creature. He had two overcoats,
tied together with rope, just like my Fagin, and hunched over. He wore gloves
with no fingers in them, mittens, his hands were covered with oxide because
he was handling metal all the time, his hands were black. And I remember my
brother asking him for a particularly rare stamp, a Victorian stamp called a
penny black. My brother was 10 at the time and we both looking up at him waiting
for his answer. "Do you have a penny black, sir?", my brother, and this voice from this man
said, "You're asking for the moon!" All these years later, I remembered that. There was my Fagin that I saw as
a child, because I wanted to create a Fagin who Oliver would see, from Oliver's
perspective, because everyone in that novel, everyone in the film, they're all
necessarily in that journey to show Oliver's journey. We're all parts of Oliver's
journey. There's a good angel and there's a dark angel fighting for this boy's
soul - Mr. Brownlow and Fagin, if you like, two angels struggling for the possession
of the soul of a child. Therefore, my role has to be there to show that child's
journey, that's the only reason Fagin is in the novel, and Fagin doesn't exist.
Doesn't exist. Even though you see him walking around on the street he doesn't
exist. He's there to show the journey of a child, the struggle for the soul
of a child as one of the two angels in the film. Q: I got the impression you had a lot of fun playing this role... A: Did you really? I loved him, and from the moment I put the prosthetic teeth
in I became him. I bent down, bent my back, bent my knees. As soon as I walked
down the set of stairs into this studio corridor, and I walked along that corridor
every morning as Fagin, quickly, swift walk I had, greeting all the crew as
Fagin. I allowed Fagin to forget who everyone was every morning. I'd ask the
same question of Roman Polanski. I'd say, "Good morning, who are you?" He'd
use to laugh so much and I'd say, "So what do you do?" I gave Fagin a lot of
license to wind people up. He'd say, "I direct the film." I'd say, "We're not
making a film, are we?" It was beautiful. I loved being inside him. Q: By being in character all the time, even off camera, did it help with
working with the children? A: I stayed in character all day so that whenever the camera was on a child,
even if I wasn't in the shot, if I was behind the camera but just in eye line
for the child. Sometimes the first assistant director would say, "You know what,
it's going to be two hours before we set up this scene, you can get out of makeup
and you can come back as you and you can go home," and I said no. If I'm behind
the camera and a child is looking at me I want the same expression on that child's
face as my brother and I had when we were asking for the moon. If I'm standing
behind the camera as me the child's just going to say, "Well, who's that? That's
not Fagin." If it's Fagin, then they looked to me so differently and they listened
to me differently and they reacted to me so differently. That was beautiful,
I loved that aspect of it. Q: Do you think you enhanced their performances then? A: They enhanced mine, so I hope it's a two-way street. I'm opening a film
with Annette Bening shortly, and Annette is totally responsible for my performance
as Herman Tarnower [in "Mrs. Harris"] because of what she gave me
as a colleague, as a fellow actor. She gave me so much, so yeah. It's absolutely
a two-way street, absolutely. Q: Dickens is also interested in social criticism. How far do you think
we've come since then? A: Not very far. I'm hoping there is a way where we can link premieres of this
film to First Star, to Save the Children, to the Princess Trust, to UNICEF,
to Unesco, to all these great organizations that are battling out there in the
field. I visited Afghanistan with the Save the Children three months ago, and
what those people are doing on the front lines there is breathtaking. I hope
that we can somehow link this film with organizations that are going out into
the favelahs, into the Palestinian camps, into the slums of Mombai, into townships
and into shantytowns. I hope that we can make a link there and empower those
people by not only the film, but by charity premieres as well. I think there's
a direct connection, I'm sure there is. Tragically, it hasn't gotten any better.
It's just migrated from London to somewhere else. Q: How do you think Dickens' work stands up today for modern audiences?
A: I think that is exactly our point. I think that we have to accept that it
is a classic, I think we have to accept that the ideas and emotions and the
characters and the feelings that he put together he put together with the same
integrity that Mozart put his symphonies together, and we still listen to Mozart.
We never question whether or not it's relevant, we just know that it's beautiful,
uplifting, provoking, extraordinary music and we listen to it. We would go to
a Mozart concert tonight, and we wouldn't worry about listening to music that
was written over 200 years ago. It wouldn't worry us at all. This is horribly
relevant. Q: This is pretty harsh criticism of the British class system. Did you feel
any conflict being part of that system/ A: Once I was in my three overcoats and I tied that rope round my waist I was
just on my little journey with those boys. Fagin creates his own family because
he was an orphan himself. I'm convinced that Fagin was an orphan, I'm sure that
his grandparents brought him over to England from some terrible pogrom they
were trying to escape from, and I'm sure that he in London with his grandparents,
he having to learn English, they not speaking a word of English, a very, very
isolated child, in a very poor part of London with extremely restricted aspirations
placed on that child, so be a street kid. And what do you do then? Then your
aspirations shrink even more. Be the best street kid on the street. When I grow
up I'll have my own street kids. The limited imagination is a simple product
of history, not whether he's good or bad or this or that, just a product of
history. Q: Because of their age, the boys had no notion of who Roman Polanski is.
Do you think that's an advantage for them? A: I'm sure it is, and he was wonderful with them. He's a loving father himself,
he's a parent, and some of the children were about the same age as his older
child. His working relationship with them was, again, uncluttered, it was just
clean lines of communication between all of us in making the film. Q: What were your expectations of working with him? A: "Death and the Maiden" was a lovely experience for me. We'd kept in contact
by telephone, letter, and then I would see him in Paris when I visited Paris,
and very recently before he offered me Fagin I was on his jury at Deauville
and we'd all sit round a big table and debate cinema. To be at the same table
as Roman, as chairman of the jury, debating what he thought of the films he'd
just seen, was beautiful. "Oliver Twist" opens wide this Friday.

